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Sparks flew in Parliament as ANC MPs tried to block tough questions to Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs (Cogta) Minister Des van Rooyen about his alleged links to the controversial Gupta family.
Van Rooyen also hid behind the yet to be convened commission of inquiry into state capture, saying he would not answer questions that may crop up in that process.
He was appearing on Tuesday before the parliamentary committee that oversees his department.
He spoke about drought and dysfunctional municipalities, and he sought to address a matter that has been raised by DA MP Kevin Mileham several times over the past eight months.
On Mileham’s request, the portfolio committee wrote to Van Rooyen last September requesting that he appear to answer questions about consultancy firm Trillian and the work it allegedly did for Cogta.
But the minister didn’t show up for two meetings to discuss the matter last year.
In a prepared response, Van Rooyen explained that Trillian was never appointed by his department nor was it commissioned to do work for them.
He indicated however that nothing prohibited ministers and departments from engaging and listening to presentations of private companies or private service providers with a view of understanding some of the latest innovations and service offerings that pertain to their mandate.
He emphasised that should there be a reason or need for a service identified through that process, it would be subjected to due supply chain management processes.
He explained that the Oliver Wyman consulting entity introduced Trillian as a supplier-development partner in January 2016.
“When they requested the meeting to give an indication to us as Cogta team at high level; as an entity that has successful turnaround strategies at municipalities worldwide, so obviously, with its performance record globally there was no way in which we were not going to be interested in listening as to what can be offered to South African municipalities,” he said.
Van Rooyen said a presentation took place on January 18 that year after a proper request for such presentation.
“They made their presentation and made a proposal of unsolicited presentation of potential solution offerings whereby they would perform a diagnosis of the department in terms of the organisational structure and relative to Cogta strategic objectives at no cost. But during the scoping, it became clear that there would be costs and thus this proposal was not pursued further and they were never commissioned,” he said.
“There were no transactions that were done and I can indicate to the committee that the aforementioned entity has no dealings with Cogta.”
When MPs sought to probe the matter further, he indicated that he was not prepared to answer questions at an “inquiry set-up” and that he would do so at the state capture inquiry appointed by President Jacob Zuma and chaired by Justice Ray Zondo.
Mileham had quizzed Van Rooyen about where, when and how he met his special advisor Mohamed Bobat.
The leaked Gupta emails and some of the witnesses in a separate parliamentary inquiry into Eskom have previously claimed that Van Rooyen – who was infamously appointed finance minister for four days in December 2015 – arrived at Treasury with two special advisors, Bobat being one of them.
When he was shifted to Cogta four days later, the two advisors moved with him.
“I’m not sure if this is an inquiry,” was his response to Mileham’s question.
“We were just informed that there will be an inquiry which is commissioned appropriately to deal with this matter ... if it’s an inquiry set-up, I will be presenting my response to the inquiry and not here,” he added. Van Rooyen even invoked a rule which states that no MP may reflect on the merits of a matter on which a judicial decision in a court of law is pending.
At first, ANC MPs raised their concerns with Van Rooyen’s approach.
For instance, Amos Masondo, the former mayor of Johannesburg, stated that MPs had a right to raise questions and expect to get appropriate responses.
“I don’t think it’s proper to say we will meet in the inquiry or wait for the inquiry.”
Another ANC MP said there would be no point in proceeding with the meeting if Van Rooyen would reject some of their questions as only appropriate for a commission of inquiry.
As Mileham pressed on with hard questions, ANC MPs turned around and criticised the DA MP for turning the committee into “a magistrate court”, “an ad hoc committee” and a “quasi-judicial process” which they said it was not.
Masondo asked if Van Rooyen had any contact with the Guptas, and if so who did he meet and what kind of issues were discussed and looked at during these meetings.
Among Mileham’s questions that raised temperatures in the venue were:
• What specific attributes, qualifications or experience made him hire Bobat as advisor, first in the National Treasury and later in Cogta?
Van Rooyen fudged the answer, saying he had given a chronological account of how Trillian ended up presenting to his department and that Bobat played no role in it.
Mileham also asked:
• Was the minister aware that Bobat carried on working for Regiments and Trillian after his appointment as special advisor?
• Had Bobat attended meetings of Trillian and Regiments after his appointment as special advisor?
• Whether Van Rooyen would agree this would present a conflict of interest considering Trillian was preparing an unsolicited bid for Van Rooyen?
Van Rooyen pleaded ignorance and admitted that if was true that Bobat continued to work for Trillian, there would “obviously be a conflict”.
He refused to explain how and why Sahara Computers booked and organised his one day trip to Dubai in December 2015.
He has previously said this was a personal holiday he took, but on Tuesday he argued that the question had nothing to do with what he was briefed about and later claimed that he had declared the trip.
Responding to a question from the ANC about whether he has links with the Guptas, he said there was no contact with the Guptas but he seemed to confine his response to whether links existed in relating to the department’s dealings with Trillian.
Mileham vowed to request a proper inquiry into the matter from the chairperson of committees Cedric Frolick.
